Interesting Discussion on the Sabbath

This is a discussion from my high school social networking site. Thought some may find it interesting:
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Original Poster's Question:

WHAT ABOUT THE SABBATH?

I'd like to know what your views (scripture based) are on our responsibility to the Scripture...
"Remember the Sabbath day to Keep it Holy" (Exodus 20:8) Can't wait to hear from you..

My First Response:

Great question!! I am attaching my sermon on this very topic. Hope this helps and look forward to your comments as well! The sabbath is the only commandment that is not carried over to the New Testament. This is not to say that we do not honor a day of rest but rather that we worship the risen Savior on the first day of the week. The Sabbath was Friday evening to Saturday evening and this is why we now worship on the first day of the week, the Lords Day, the day of the resurrection.


Original Poster's Response:

Hi Joey, Thanks for jumping in here with some attention to this question that I posted. I appreciate your answers. I read your sermon (well, most of it anyway) I think I have more questions now than answers!! (lol) Ok. If the Sabbath is a Commandment (one of the ten, right) who said it's not carried over into the New Testament? The New testament hadn't been written when Jesus was on earth right? Doesn's Scripture say that Jesus kept the Sabbath? The disciples also kept the Sabbath? Then there's this other fact that God is immutable, (HE doesn't change) So WHO CHANGED IT TO SUNDAY????? The scriptures say that the early chruch kept the Sabbath....It really wasnt until waaayyy later that the Sabbath "changed to Sunday.

Though your sermon has some great points. I'd like to ask you about them point by point if that's ok? (soon) But first, the previous questions...also, your sermons quotes Collosians at the "therefore" I think we should look at what's before the therefore and see what therefore is reall... " there for". Don't get me wrong, Im ok (sorta)with the fact that people "worship" on the first day of the week -Sunday... but it's that commandment about the 7th day (the SABBATH) that Im speaking about. THE REST DAY...the HOLYday.



Another Poster's Response:

Very interesting discussion. My understanding (and Joey may have to correct me) on this: First, in Mark 2:27 (King James Version), God said, "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath." So, does it really matter when we recognize the Sabbath? Isn't the greater point to have a day of rest in Christ?

I asked my husband about this and here's his take:
The early church of the Apostles (was it called The Way??) met in the Synagogue on Saturday, the Sabbath. When Constantine formed Catholicism with the goal of uniting Rome, they also met in the Synagogue but met on Sunday because it was not available on Saturday. When the Protestants broke away from the Catholic Church, they kept the practice of meeting on Sunday.


My Second Response:

Thanks for the depth of the discussion! I wish more brothers and sisters were as passionate.

First, I hope we would both agree (and I think we do) that the Sabbath and the Lord's Day are two separate and distinct days. The Sabbath in the Law was on the 7th day (Fri. evening to Sat. evening) and the Lord's Day is Sunday (the day of the resurrection). So, no one has "changed" the Sabbath day.

Now, the early church (including the Apostles) did gather and worship on the Lord's Day (pre-dating Constantine):

Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.

1 Corinthians 16:2
On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come.

Revelation 1:10
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet

And yes the Apostles were Jews and did adhere to keeping the Sabbath as did our Lord.

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

But the Law involves more than just the major "10" commandments given by the Lord. There are over 600 commandments from God in the Old Testament scriptures.

My apology is this; which of the other 630 are we in violation of keeping?

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.

I recognize that your topic is the "Sabbath". However,

Acts 15:5
But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”

So, all those who are uncircumcised are not in keeping with the Old Testament Law and are therefore condemned? No, certainly not.....

Galatians 5:1-15
5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. 7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in the Lord that you will take no other view than mine, and the one who is troubling you will bear the penalty, whoever he is. 11 But if I, brothers, still preach circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been removed. 12 I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves! 13 For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.

So, I fear that if there is a demand to maintain the fourth commandment then there must also be a demand to maintain the other 629 (roughly).

Galatians 3:10-13
10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

Worshiping and resting on the Lord's Day is dedicating one full day of seven to Him and in keeping with what the Lord set aside as a day of rest.

Galatians 2:16-21
16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. 17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.


This is in fact the difference in protestants and Catholics. Although it is not the Sabbath law they are trying to keep, they are guilty of promoting works over faith (Mass, last rites, etc). This is what Martin Luther fought so hard against and why to this day we must proclaim Sola Deo Gloria, Sola Christus, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura (Glory to God alone, Christ alone, Grace alone, Faith alone and scripture alone).

Dear sister in the faith, I am truly enjoying the discussion and I pray this explanation finds you well.

By the way -- Here is the context of my passage in Colossians....or.... what the "therefore" is "there for":

Colossians 2:1-15
2:1 For I want you to know how great a struggle I have for you and for those at Laodicea and for all who have not seen me face to face, 2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge of God's mystery, which is Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments. 5 For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ. 6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. 8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.


16 THEREFORE let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Until He Returns,


Original Poster's Response:

wow, there is sooo much information on this page... i dont know where to start. lets take it back up to the top, you said that the sabbath and the "Lords" day were two seperate days...y do u think so? What leads you to that conclusion?

in Acts 20:7 what leads you to the conclusion that they had met to "worship"?

you mention that the early church met and gathered together on Sunday to worship, did Jesus? After Jesus was crucified, wern't some of the "early church" afraid that they would be killed if they were identified as jewish or jews so they tried to "blend" in with the Romans and did so by worshiping on Sunday? (there was a decree to kill all Sabbath observers, Kosher Keeprs, JEWS in short)

Question: Who instituted the Sabbath? God -right? Did Jesus nullify that the Sabbath or in some/any way demonstrate through is OWN actions that it was no longer necessary to keep?

Doesnt scripture teach of a Sabbath rest yet to come?

The Sabbath is special...Not being just "A" day of rest, but "THE" day of rest.

Yes, the Law DOES involve over 600 commandments, 613 to be exact...some which were ceremonial in nature, some were Rabbinaical, (for the Rabbi's only) etc. Some laws (sacrifices) were done only until the perfect sacrifice died (Jesus) and then they were no longer necessary. But God said that I want you to do this (Keep Sabbath) FOREVER as an EVERLASTING statue/covenant and to teach our children. God knew that Jesus would come when He gave that commandment, didn't HE? Afterall, the LAMB was already SLAIN from the foundations of the world, right? So forever = forever, right?

Paul talks alot about keeping the law, He says "the Law is good, just and Holy" does that sound like somehthing that is obsolete to the disciples?

You mention Circumcision. Scripture speaks about circumcision of the heart and not "just" of the flesh...Scripture speaks on something added. Nothing was changed/added to the Sabbath... we (man) did that.. not God and certainly not Jesus or his disciples...don't you think.?

We cant pick and choose which parts of the law we should keep and which we shouldnt. Keeping the commandments of God is an honor,. We keep them NOT to BE saved but because we are saved. God called us out and set us apart from the "world" -we are different...we are "supposed" to be marching to a "different" beat. The Commandments that God gave us are to keep us while on this "different and set apart" walk of ours. The dietary laws are not because he wants to punish us when we smell the ribs cooking and cant eat em.. its because He is aware that pigs dont sweat, they internalize in their flesh, toxins that will over time harm/kill us if ingested; that crabs, shrimp and catfish are all "bottom dwellers and the eat unhealthy things that are internalized in their flesh and the poisions are passed on to those who ingest them and sooner or later, we will be affected (physically) after ingesting them. Should we wash our hand, pots etc... sure we should...bacteria mold etc can and will kill. Do we do these things to BE saved...God forbid...But should we be obedient to OUR FATHER who also happens to be the Creator of ALL things ( and knows waaay more than we about it/them and us)... i thins so, if we are smart.

I know we are supposed to be on the subject of the Sabbath.. but these were points that you raised. No one IS JUSTIFIED by the LAW but you are SANCTIFIED (Clean and set apart) by it.. and I like Paul understand being Free but a Slave to the LAW.... for the Law doesnt impute righteousness of Justification... mereley SANTIFICATION......I think most people cant see that..we look at the word LAW from a western mentality... as something we HAVE to KEEP...its something we GET to keep..its a privialge that a Loving Father sets some rules and guidelines (much like earthly parents do who love thier children and want them to be safe and live a long and healthy life)

I think a lot of the "bitter" taste of the "law" comes from the fact that you had people making laws on how to keep God's laws. Jesus often broke many of these "oral traditions" or the "traditions of men" which were making the word or law of God of no effect.

So i think we agree that there should be a keeping of a holy day, but which day should we keep is the 10 million dollar Question. ok... lets see.
#1 Genesis says that God Blessed the 7th day, and Sanctified it.
#2 This 7th day was the day that God Himself honored and observed, for the Scriptures say that God rested on the 7th day.
#3 All thourought the entire bible there is a pattern of rest and observation of the 7th day ; from the land resting on the 7th year, Jubilee being a series of 7's, 7 being the number of completion etc. 7 7 7 7 7 everywhere. God really made it a point to demonstrate the completeness of 7.
#4 Throughout scripture the number seven is only mentioned when a demonstration of completeness and or perfection is noteworthy; i.e. Joshua marched around the city 7 times etc.
#5 Jesus and his Disciples kept the Sabbath and Jews around the world today keep Sabbath. Scripture does say (by the mouth of Paul) that the advantage to being a Jew is that the Oracles (WORD) of God was entrusted to them.
#6 Even at the time of the crucifiction, the Sabbath(s) (for there were 2 Sabbahs during that week He was crucified) were a major part of deciding when He (Jesus) would be burried and I believe when he would ultimately be ressurected. and fianlly
#7 (I had to keep the 7 thing going :) ) There is a Sabbath Day rest for God's People on the 7th day of man (a day is as a thousand year with God and a thousand years is as a day)

what is interesting to me is the acutal commandment itself, which is two part. I think God knew that we would "fumble the ball" on this one so a dual commandment was made... REMEMBER the Sabbath to/and KEEP it holy. Strong words if you really think about them seperately. We are COMMANDED to REMEMBER it and KEEP it. Keep it HOLY (keep it set apart for God, CLEAN etc)

Finally:

Ive started putting scripture back into the context. Using line upon line, here a little and there a little, precept upon PRECEPT. THEMEATICALLY it has to all fit.. no one point can contriadict the other.. if so, i have to go back to the drawing board because GOD is consistant, and immutable and Jesus came not to glorify himself but the FATHER. And in Glorifying HIM, He has to uphold his word because before ONE JOT or TITLE FAILS, all heaven and earth will pass away. IT HAS TO BE CONSISTANT AND IT HAS TO FIT!!!!!!


Here lately I have made it a point in my own studies to really ask God for the TRUTH of/in his word. That meant that I had to be willing to say, ok Father, I might be wrong in what i think i know. HELP me find the truth, lead me and guide me into ALL truths. That prayer has led me to THIS place of WHAT ABOUT THE SABBATH??? In Colossians i think the background problem (the reason paul penned this letter to the newly established church in colosse while in a roman prison) was that witchcraft and occultic practices, different doctorine and legalisim to the doctorine of man were being introduced as "necessary" for SALVATION to this body of believers in Messiah, Jesus and Paul was explaing to them to continue in what he had taught them. Would Paul, a Sabbath KEEPER himself , TEACH one thing and DO another??? How credible is he/his teaching if he did that???

The initial scriputre that you used said to let no man pass judgment on YOU about (YOUR) food (dietary laws) and dring (dont eat/drink blood, strong intoxicating drink, etc) with regard to a festival (passover, tabernacles. etc) New moons (holydays, also in Genisis where God says WHY he set the lights and moons in the firmament to be for signs and seasons etc) or a SABBATH... and i agree! no one should allow others to pass judgement on us for keeping the SABBATH etc. (if this were a supporting scriputre for NOT keeping the Sabbath anymore, then it would have to also apply to those who "keep" the "sabbath" on Sunday.) You know, the more i say that "Sabbath (7th day) and Sunday (1st day) "synonomously" i realize that it's an "oxymorone" they just cannot be one and the same!!! (revelation :) ! ) that "These are a "shadow" of things to come... YES!!! our PROMISED SABBATH REST who's substance DOES belong to CHRIST!!!!!

SUMMARY:
I guess i've reached a conclusion, "As for me and my house, WE will serve the LORD!!!! I'll haver to take my chances with the SABBATH (day #7) I'll be in the Company of some GREAT men, God himself, Jesus our Lord and Saviour, Paul, Matthew, Peter, Moses, Abraham, Most if not All of Gods chosen people, Other JEWS. If im wrong, I can blame His WORD, after all HE COMMANDED me to do it this way.

Thanks for the discussion...Ive been enlightened.


YES!!.... until HE does Return,
Your Sister In Christ (Yeshua Hamesheiach)

My Final Response:

My indication of two separate days is based on the the Lord's command to keep one in seven days Holy and set apart for rest, as you have indicated. It does not matter if that day is Friday evening to Saturday evening or if it is the full day of Sunday (the Lord's Day). As you have indicated, God is eternal and immutable and is not bound to time, space, the Gregorian or Julian calendaring systems. One day out of seven should be set aside for Him. To study and meditate on Him, to fellowship with other believers and to rest and recuperate from six days of work.

The Sabbath was created at the point of creation not when Moses was given the Law:

Genesis 2:1-3
2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. 3 So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.

Here is a good explanation from Ra McLaughlin
".....in Exodus 16 where God commanded the Israelites to observe the Sabbath in the wilderness, he indicated which day would be the Sabbath not by referring to days of the week, but by telling them to count the days on which they received manna (Exod. 16:4-5,22-23). The Bible does not say that they began to receive manna on the first day of the week, but marks the time from "the fifteenth day of the second month after their departure from Egypt" (Exod. 16:1). We do not possess an ancient Hebrew calendar, and we do not know on which day the Sabbath fell in the wilderness. In fact, it is entirely possible that the Hebrews did not determine which day the Sabbath was by looking at the calendar to find the seventh day of the week, but instead determined the seventh day of the week by first determining when the Sabbath was.
Assessing all the occurences of "seventh day" in the Old Testament, and looking at the institution of the Sabbath, it seems that the Old Testament does not clearly teach that the Sabbath is to be observed on the seventh day of the week -- or at least that the calendar week is not to be used to determine which day is the seventh.In the New Testament, the Jews celebrated the Sabbath on what was generally recognized as the seventh day of the week (Matt. 28:1; Mark. 16:1-2; Luke 23:56-24:1), and Jesus recognized their choice of days (e.g. Matt. 12:1-13; Luke 13:14-16). However, neither Jesus nor any other New Testament writer indicated that the Sabbath day always had to fall on the seventh day of the week as determined by any regular calendar."

I wholly agree with you, that because we are saved we strive to keep the standards of the Lord our God and His spotless Son, Jesus Christ. However,

Romans 3:21-31
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Had it not been for God's beautiful and perfect Law, I would know not the condition of my sinful heart.

Romans 7

7:1 Or do you not know, brothers —for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? 2 For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. 3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.

4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.



There are truths of God that I know I do not yet comprehend and there are sins in my heart that have not yet been exposed. But all are saved by grace, through faith, it is not works so that any man should boast, salvation belongs to and is a gift from God.

I do lovingly disagree with your statement on being sanctified by the law. Please correct me if I misunderstood, but we are in no way sanctified by the law, we are sanctified by the work of the Holy Spirit, through the blood atonement of Christ Jesus.

John 17:19
And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.

Romans 15:16
to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Hebrews 10:10
And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:29
How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?


With all respect and love in our Lord,

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Any Comments?