J, i absolutely understand the apprehension you have about this slick looking magazine... i do really wonder sometimes why it seems like Christians are in competition with the world... for me, it's not contest, and i have no desire to appear 'cool' when compared to a world that doesn't know GOD....
i fear that however noble the motives are for people making such efforts, it lends itself to carnality! if this is the means by which we attract people - what do we do to keep them?
I need some clarification, why is this magazine competition with the world? I ask this because if it were marketed to the unbelieving world I would agree, but I haven't found where it is, I have only found where it is marketed to believers, by believers. It seemed like just because it is a "slick looking magazine" its competition. I believe if we, as believers, do anything, it should be the best out there. (i.e. publishing a magazine, fixing a computer, making clothing, preaching the Word, making candy; test-a-mints for example, have you tasted those things?/they're horrible). Anyway, I am not trying to say you are wrong and I am right, I humbly ask why its competition, because I don't understand. Also, carnality. Why do you say it lends itself to carnality? Again, just trying to understand your comment.
please read my previous post again, i believe i already answered your questions... i just cannot imagine that this mag is something that Jesus would use even within the confines of our current culture to reach people... it's the the walmartization of the GOSPEL... it's more of a distraction than it is a promotion... and thusly it is unnecessary...
why should we trick people into reading the Word of GOD? it's a bate and switch, an old marketing trick - is this what Jesus did? i don't think so...
Never said "Jesus would use even within the confines of our current culture to reach people" ...Just trying to understand your comments. I don't believe we should trick folks either.
Sorry you took offense...Please read other comment on original post, i will delete this too by this afternoon.
Let me preface this comment with this, I am not trying to be a smart butt.
What do you think about some of the bible covers I have been seeing lately? I am assuming you have seen them too. I would consider them slick also, (by the way they look). Or is it just the words on the magazine cover you don't like or just the whole package in general?
I ask these ?'s because pastorj respects you and in turn I value your opinion. Thats why I asked the ?'s in my previous comment because of that. It seems they really ticked you off and I apologize.
This is a very controversial topic and I completely understand why. I personally haven't come to a final conclusion on what I think about it yet, but like I said...I ordered it and have now received it and have looked at some of the articles. The only negative I can imagine is the mixing of the New Testament with other 'articles'. And maybe this is the main problem. But the articles (usually a couple of paragraphs) say some good things that Christians need to read. There are too many Christians out there that are clumsily drifting through life today because nobody is discipling them. They don't know what a real 'church' looks like because they have never seen one...they have only seen hippocrites and preacher stepfathers that cuss their mothers out. What this Bible does (and it is obvious from the cover and the inside cover that this is 'marketed' as a Bible) is give a person the complete New Testament and numerous articles to help someone apply Biblical values to every aspect of their life. I'll close by saying that I am one of the most sceptical, judgmental Christians I know. I am very weary and critical of much so-called Christian music today. Whether it's pop, rock, rap or some other kind. But I read an interesting article by a Christian Hip-Hop artists the other night explaining the importance of Christian Rap/Hip-Hop. There are many who are against it. But what I think they are doing, for God's glory, is 'marketing' if you want to use that term, the gospel to a culture/generation that otherwise will not hear of the redemptive work of Jesus Christ. The true ones are not tricking anyone, they're just using the gift God gave them to reach people with the gospel. Maybe this falls in a different category, but I see a lot of good in this. Finally, my daughter has a Bible that is marketed to teenage girls. I think that it is a good thing. I believe that teaching should come from me as her father, but I'm glad she has a Bible that will help her apply God's Word to where she is in life. I hope we can all agree to disagree if we must. I love each one of you very much and want to serve with each one of you very much.
i appreciate your comments, and i definitely see your point in that everyone cannot be reached the same way, but at the same time i think we have to be cautious as to how we go about doing that.
i don't question the noble motives of the publishers, inasmuch as i call into question the judgment that was demonstrated. with a glance at the cover alone - every one of the topics headlined has a very selfish appeal (this is a huge problem in the church today!!) - and it is obviously not meant to be a tool for evangelism in that the subject matter is of a mature nature geared more toward discipleship and counsel rather than bringing lost souls to Christ.
at the very least, as i stated earlier, we must be very careful as to how we present Christ. whatever means we use must be the mean we adopt to keep them, and i'm (this is an opinion) a little bit concerned about what this will look like... does that make sense?
The cover definitely lends itself to poor judgment, especially with the 'Sexcess' heading being one of the more dominant. And I do see now where some of the topics are self-seeking. Furthermore, it is hard to read the Bible in thee because of the 'extras'. And I intended to state earlier, as Rusty did, that I would never recommend this to someone. But looking through it, I do see where there is a need for much of this in part of our culture today. I am not real close to this starbucks generation that I have heard about, but I believe that this may be something they would be into, not so much as a primary source of study, but certainly as a tool. There are definitely some good articles in there though, and I will refer to it from time to time for those (especially since I dropped $7 on it). I do wish it was 'marketed' more as a magazine and not a Bible. Finally, I want to say in regard to the original post (and I don't know if Jodey is following) that there may be some people that read this that are actually saved. I just don't want to fall into a habit of throwing stones at everything that I personally don't get into. I've done that all too often, so I tend to make slower decisions on certain things now. Hope I haven't contradicted myself.
More... I agree that this is not intended as an evangelistic tool. I guess that's why I don't have a big problem with it. Lost people will not be in a Christian bookstore looking for this,but primarily a younger generation of believers. And,like I said, the inside is full of topics that probably don't get mentioned alot in most churches today. If I may solicit your thoughts a little more, I have been wondering about similar things that seem to fall into sort of a gray area. Take VBS for example. How do you feel about the marketing that it uses to entice children to participate? Is it appropriate?Is it acceptable because their kids? It's possible you and Jodey have discussed this, I know it's been on his mind. Do you think this differs greatly from Align? My problem is I see alot of different methods for reaching people, and I hear alot of neagtivity toward someof them and I can't see where the line is drawn. Examples... VBS - draws kids Bow Shoot - draws men Car Show - draws men/women/kids There are more, but do you see where I'm coming from? Curious and confused...
Jason, I think VBS -the name itself speaks to its purpose... and the tools used in the confines of VBS are generally age appropriate materials with a very clear, concise, theme... so i don't know if it is an accurate comparison... but i also admit that i haven't previewed every VBS kit that is out there...
I want to make it clear that my problem with any type of 'marketing' of the Gospel must be done very careful in that we mustn't allow our 'culture' to inform the Gospel when the exact opposite is what GOD expects of His people...
we are to be salt and light... and we needn't search the world for other exotic seasonings to make our message more appealing...
It does make sense and I agree with you (and Jodey) about that. I guess my hang up and maybe Rusty's is that I look at this as a tool for discipleship rather than evangelism. Maybe my faith is weak, but when I see a bold stance against something like this and I look at it more closely and still don't have a big problem with it, I begin to question my discernment and even my faith. I see what you mean about the 'packaging' of the gospel, if that's a good term, but wonder if that's wrong in just evangelism or if it's wrong for discipleship, too. I think of the commercials today that feel they need to use a seductive female to try to sell me a cheeseburger. I'm like 'No need, hoss. If I want a cheeseburger, I'll get one.' I guess my point about this publication is I see it as a tool for a certain group of believers, not a tool to lure lost people into reading the Bible. If I see it in Wal Mart or Food World, then that will change. Stay with me if you can... I'm also trying to get a clearer understanding of appropriate evangelistic methods. We've had the discussion many times in Sunday School, but my feeble mind just hasn't grasped where the line is. I bring VBS up again. True, the name says alot, but are we creating an atmosphere that kids love, just so they'll hear the gospel. Isn't that crossing the line a little? And what about a church organized community night where it's mostly just fellowship of believers and non-believers? I'm not saying lock the doors once they're in and preach about hell until they repent. But why would it be wrong to invite them to church and maybe mention the love of God in a brief word. I'm not saying give an Osteen message, but a good preacher can get a good point across in a few minutes. Maybe this is a bad idea...that's why I bring it up to get some thoughts. I just feel so confused because it seems to me that certain methods are acceptable and some are not and many times I don't see a clear difference. That's why I brought up music. I have a Christian friend that listens to that screaming metal and I'm like 'you can't even understand the message'. But does that make it wrong? Finally, (yes!) I realize one of the issues is 'keeping' people after we have 'attracted' them. So I guess I'm searching for the appropriate tools to attract people, because if they're truly converted, God will keep them. I know Jesus did miracles to show His deity and purpose, but did He also know that they would attract crowds that came for the show? And were people truly converted when they heard Him preach? I hate to beat this into the ground, but I truly want to know and 'see the point like a steeple'. I love you, man..I see you have the fruit of patience.
14 comments:
Just ordered it. I couldn't find the bad stuff on the previews, only good stuff.
Anyway, if anybody wants to talk about the Bible, I'm game.
J,
i absolutely understand the apprehension you have about this slick looking magazine... i do really wonder sometimes why it seems like Christians are in competition with the world... for me, it's not contest, and i have no desire to appear 'cool' when compared to a world that doesn't know GOD....
i fear that however noble the motives are for people making such efforts, it lends itself to carnality! if this is the means by which we attract people - what do we do to keep them?
i don't know... just one man's 'opinion'...
Adam,
I need some clarification, why is this magazine competition with the world? I ask this because if it were marketed to the unbelieving world I would agree, but I haven't found where it is, I have only found where it is marketed to believers, by believers. It seemed like just because it is a "slick looking magazine" its competition.
I believe if we, as believers, do anything, it should be the best out there. (i.e. publishing a magazine, fixing a computer, making clothing, preaching the Word, making candy; test-a-mints for example, have you tasted those things?/they're horrible). Anyway, I am not trying to say you are wrong and I am right, I humbly ask why its competition, because I don't understand. Also, carnality. Why do you say it lends itself to carnality? Again, just trying to understand your comment.
please read my previous post again, i believe i already answered your questions... i just cannot imagine that this mag is something that Jesus would use even within the confines of our current culture to reach people... it's the the walmartization of the GOSPEL... it's more of a distraction than it is a promotion... and thusly it is unnecessary...
why should we trick people into reading the Word of GOD? it's a bate and switch, an old marketing trick - is this what Jesus did? i don't think so...
nuff said already...
ihs,
adam
Adam,
Never said "Jesus would use even within the confines of our current culture to reach people"
...Just trying to understand your comments.
I don't believe we should trick folks either.
Sorry you took offense...Please read other comment on original post, i will delete this too by this afternoon.
Let me preface this comment with this, I am not trying to be a smart butt.
What do you think about some of the bible covers I have been seeing lately? I am assuming you have seen them too. I would consider them slick also, (by the way they look). Or is it just the words on the magazine cover you don't like or just the whole package in general?
I ask these ?'s because pastorj respects you and in turn I value your opinion. Thats why I asked the ?'s in my previous comment because of that. It seems they really ticked you off and I apologize.
This is a very controversial topic and I completely understand why. I personally haven't come to a final conclusion on what I think about it yet, but like I said...I ordered it and have now received it and have looked at some of the articles.
The only negative I can imagine is the mixing of the New Testament with other 'articles'. And maybe this is the main problem. But the articles (usually a couple of paragraphs) say some good things that Christians need to read.
There are too many Christians out there that are clumsily drifting through life today because nobody is discipling them. They don't know what a real 'church' looks like because they have never seen one...they have only seen hippocrites and preacher stepfathers that cuss their mothers out.
What this Bible does (and it is obvious from the cover and the inside cover that this is 'marketed' as a Bible) is give a person the complete New Testament and numerous articles to help someone apply Biblical values to every aspect of their life.
I'll close by saying that I am one of the most sceptical, judgmental Christians I know. I am very weary and critical of much so-called Christian music today. Whether it's pop, rock, rap or some other kind. But I read an interesting article by a Christian Hip-Hop artists the other night explaining the importance of Christian Rap/Hip-Hop. There are many who are against it. But what I think they are doing, for God's glory, is 'marketing' if you want to use that term, the gospel to a culture/generation that otherwise will not hear of the redemptive work of Jesus Christ. The true ones are not tricking anyone, they're just using the gift God gave them to reach people with the gospel.
Maybe this falls in a different category, but I see a lot of good in this.
Finally, my daughter has a Bible that is marketed to teenage girls. I think that it is a good thing. I believe that teaching should come from me as her father, but I'm glad she has a Bible that will help her apply God's Word to where she is in life.
I hope we can all agree to disagree if we must. I love each one of you very much and want to serve with each one of you very much.
For Christ
jason
jason,
i appreciate your comments, and i definitely see your point in that everyone cannot be reached the same way, but at the same time i think we have to be cautious as to how we go about doing that.
i don't question the noble motives of the publishers, inasmuch as i call into question the judgment that was demonstrated. with a glance at the cover alone - every one of the topics headlined has a very selfish appeal (this is a huge problem in the church today!!) - and it is obviously not meant to be a tool for evangelism in that the subject matter is of a mature nature geared more toward discipleship and counsel rather than bringing lost souls to Christ.
at the very least, as i stated earlier, we must be very careful as to how we present Christ. whatever means we use must be the mean we adopt to keep them, and i'm (this is an opinion) a little bit concerned about what this will look like... does that make sense?
ihs,
adam
btw
again, my dissent was not rooted in cultural differences - if you know me - you know me...
there is a problem, however, when the culture begins to shape the Gospel message... the Gospel should infuse all that we do, and how we live...
Jesus should be our greatest influence, he must never come under our influence... or He is not Jesus...
ihs,
adam
The cover definitely lends itself to poor judgment, especially with the 'Sexcess' heading being one of the more dominant. And I do see now where some of the topics are self-seeking. Furthermore, it is hard to read the Bible in thee because of the 'extras'. And I intended to state earlier, as Rusty did, that I would never recommend this to someone.
But looking through it, I do see where there is a need for much of this in part of our culture today. I am not real close to this starbucks generation that I have heard about, but I believe that this may be something they would be into, not so much as a primary source of study, but certainly as a tool. There are definitely some good articles in there though, and I will refer to it from time to time for those (especially since I dropped $7 on it).
I do wish it was 'marketed' more as a magazine and not a Bible. Finally, I want to say in regard to the original post (and I don't know if Jodey is following) that there may be some people that read this that are actually saved. I just don't want to fall into a habit of throwing stones at everything that I personally don't get into. I've done that all too often, so I tend to make slower decisions on certain things now.
Hope I haven't contradicted myself.
For Christ
jason
More...
I agree that this is not intended as an evangelistic tool. I guess that's why I don't have a big problem with it. Lost people will not be in a Christian bookstore looking for this,but primarily a younger generation of believers.
And,like I said, the inside is full of topics that probably don't get mentioned alot in most churches today.
If I may solicit your thoughts a little more, I have been wondering about similar things that seem to fall into sort of a gray area.
Take VBS for example. How do you feel about the marketing that it uses to entice children to participate? Is it appropriate?Is it acceptable because their kids? It's possible you and Jodey have discussed this, I know it's been on his mind. Do you think this differs greatly from Align?
My problem is I see alot of different methods for reaching people, and I hear alot of neagtivity toward someof them and I can't see where the line is drawn. Examples...
VBS - draws kids
Bow Shoot - draws men
Car Show - draws men/women/kids
There are more, but do you see where I'm coming from? Curious and confused...
jason
Jason,
I think VBS -the name itself speaks to its purpose... and the tools used in the confines of VBS are generally age appropriate materials with a very clear, concise, theme... so i don't know if it is an accurate comparison... but i also admit that i haven't previewed every VBS kit that is out there...
I want to make it clear that my problem with any type of 'marketing' of the Gospel must be done very careful in that we mustn't allow our 'culture' to inform the Gospel when the exact opposite is what GOD expects of His people...
we are to be salt and light... and we needn't search the world for other exotic seasonings to make our message more appealing...
does that make any sense at all?
ihs,
adam
It does make sense and I agree with you (and Jodey) about that. I guess my hang up and maybe Rusty's is that I look at this as a tool for discipleship rather than evangelism. Maybe my faith is weak, but when I see a bold stance against something like this and I look at it more closely and still don't have a big problem with it, I begin to question my discernment and even my faith. I see what you mean about the 'packaging' of the gospel, if that's a good term, but wonder if that's wrong in just evangelism or if it's wrong for discipleship, too. I think of the commercials today that feel they need to use a seductive female to try to sell me a cheeseburger. I'm like 'No need, hoss. If I want a cheeseburger, I'll get one.' I guess my point about this publication is I see it as a tool for a certain group of believers, not a tool to lure lost people into reading the Bible. If I see it in Wal Mart or Food World, then that will change. Stay with me if you can...
I'm also trying to get a clearer understanding of appropriate evangelistic methods. We've had the discussion many times in Sunday School, but my feeble mind just hasn't grasped where the line is. I bring VBS up again. True, the name says alot, but are we creating an atmosphere that kids love, just so they'll hear the gospel. Isn't that crossing the line a little?
And what about a church organized community night where it's mostly just fellowship of believers and non-believers? I'm not saying lock the doors once they're in and preach about hell until they repent. But why would it be wrong to invite them to church and maybe mention the love of God in a brief word. I'm not saying give an Osteen message, but a good preacher can get a good point across in a few minutes. Maybe this is a bad idea...that's why I bring it up to get some thoughts.
I just feel so confused because it seems to me that certain methods are acceptable and some are not and many times I don't see a clear difference. That's why I brought up music. I have a Christian friend that listens to that screaming metal and I'm like 'you can't even understand the message'. But does that make it wrong?
Finally, (yes!) I realize one of the issues is 'keeping' people after we have 'attracted' them. So I guess I'm searching for the appropriate tools to attract people, because if they're truly converted, God will keep them. I know Jesus did miracles to show His deity and purpose, but did He also know that they would attract crowds that came for the show? And were people truly converted when they heard Him preach?
I hate to beat this into the ground, but I truly want to know and 'see the point like a steeple'.
I love you, man..I see you have the fruit of patience.
jason
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